Intel design flaw: slowdown coming

[zombie67]

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/01/02/intel_cpu_design_flaw/


PostgreSQL SELECT 1 with the KPTI workaround for Intel CPU vulnerability https://t.co/N9gSvML2Fo

Best case: 17% slowdown
Worst case: 23%

— The Register (@TheRegister) January 2, 2018

This is a huge deal, especially for services like AWS.

Time to re-run the benchmark comparisons with AMD, once the flawed intel "cheating" has been fixed.

[Bryan]

Time to make sure that "updates" are turned off :D

[John P. Myers]

DEFINITELY make sure automatic updates are OFF (they should be anyway). Windows, Linux, iOS, everything. This will be a real killer, especially when using VMs. That "worst case 23%" is a load of crap, actually. Phoronix has demonstrated up to 53% slowdown after the patch, but as low as 1%. Just depends on specific processor and workload, as always. Of course this also means you can never update the OS in the future either. Sell it all and switch to AMD (which doesn't have the bug), or keep it and look for cheap Intel CPUs on eBay to upgrade with :D As of right now, Intel's stock is down 6.7% just today. This is bad.

The bug is hardware based and cannot truly be fixed without buying a next gen CPU (Coffee Lake, at best, which won't be available for months). These OS patches are just workarounds, hence the performance hits.

[DrPop]

Yeah, I just saw this a few mins ago on the Parallax robotics forum. Dang...that is a serious hit to performance. :(

[Bryan]

Just wait till the data centers etc feel they have to upgrade their HW. Then the machines which are great for our needs should show up at really good prices. Just install Win7 w/o the internet connected and enjoy :D

[zombie67]

Basically Intel has been using a cheat, to improve performance (insecurely).

With that cheat blocked, I would really like to see the comparisons to threadripper re-run.

Also, the huge server farms (AWS, Google, etc), are suddenly going to be down on capacity, and will have to buy more immediately. This could lead to component shortages and price increases for a while.

Edit: This is probably going to cost Intel $BILLIONS$ in law suits. Of course, it will just be the lawyers who get rich.

[Bryan]

Well Threadripper isn't the greatest thing since sliced bread Z. They had to do a special version of AVX2 optimized apps for Threadrippers on Rake Search because they execute some AVX commands very slowly.

[DrPop]

I think the AMD CPUs to get will be this next round. I saw some site talking about their refresh chips due out early 2018, and they are moving to a smaller nm Node process. That should help efficiency (credits per watt in our case), and hopefully they would fix the little AVX stuff and things like that from Gen 1.

@Bryan - that's not a bad idea, just crunch off Win7 w/out updates and all if the hardware prices start dropping on some of that higher end crunching stuff over the next year or so. Wouldn't necessarily work for daily driving rigs, but for "cruncher only" rigs maybe.

[John P. Myers]

Just a heads up on the Intel PR machine...

In a lame attempt to save face, Intel issued a statement in which they tried to point the finger at every CPU brand (AMD, ARM, etc.) and every OS as also being equally as vulnerable/at fault. This is false. AMD has since returned fire to discredit Intel's joke of a PR statement. The exploit (called Meltdown) has been tested heavily since this news broke and no CPU brand other than Intel has failed the test. Intel's remarks regarding the expected slowdown of their CPUs because of patches are also just filler and don't actually answer the question.

Intel's new motto: If you can't win, deflect.

[John P. Myers]

Windows just rolled out the Win10 update 4-5 mins ago. Hope no one is downloading it lol

*Edit: There is a second bug (called Spectre) that can affect AMD, ARM, etc., but it is extremely difficult to implement. Meltdown is the main (and far easier) exploit which is the real concern, and is the one that'll slow down our CPUs upon patching. A lot of shilling for Intel going on right now, even from some reputable sites who are not differentiating the 2 exploits to make it appear everyone on earth is vulnerable. This is absolutely false. Here's a table to use as simple reference: (Data provided by Google Project Zero who are the ones that discovered the bug in the first place)
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[zombie67]

Well Threadripper isn't the greatest thing since sliced bread Z. They had to do a special version of AVX2 optimized apps for Threadrippers on Rake Search because they execute some AVX commands very slowly.

Sure. And even worse for AVX-512. But now the intel price premium is that much harder to justify, when there is even less of a performance advantage.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[scole of TSBT]

Will there be a way to install an OS without getting the performance robbing updates or be a way to remove it?

[DrPop]

This is not looking good. At first it seemed like you could just keep the fast (old) kernel and web browse in a VM. Now there is some thought it could breach that. So...I honestly don't see how for any "normal use" computer we can get away with not updating with the patch. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I set my Windows 10 rigs to postpone updates but it only allows for 1 month of postponement. Bizarre, I've never seen that before. Is there any way to stop Win 10 updates altogether?

[zombie67]

Only Enterprise Win10 customers can completely prevent updates. The rest of us can only delay.

[DrPop]

Only Enterprise Win10 customers can completely prevent updates. The rest of us can only delay.

Wow. What a crock. I wish I had never updated any of my rigs now. So Win 10 is the first OS that requires OS updates? As in, the end user has no control over them?

[somanyroads]

Question: If, in Windows 10, Windows Update is disabled, it only delays the update? It will update automatically anyway? Bummer.

Control Panel>Administrative Tools>Services>Windows Update>right click>Properties>Startup type>Disabled. And Stop the service if it is running.

[shiva]

This is not looking good. At first it seemed like you could just keep the fast (old) kernel and web browse in a VM. Now there is some thought it could breach that. So...I honestly don't see how for any "normal use" computer we can get away with not updating with the patch. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I set my Windows 10 rigs to postpone updates but it only allows for 1 month of postponement. Bizarre, I've never seen that before. Is there any way to stop Win 10 updates altogether?

how bout buy a new HD and install vista on it or maybe win7 and use your old HD's for target practice. :)

[shiva]

ok I have a box that did a download last night I think. it was set to download but not to install. now I have disabled update. i went to restart and it only allows me to update and restart or update and shut down. how can I find and remove the update.

[Bryan]

Another pisser is any Intel CPU later than Broadwell is not supported on Win7 so you have no choice but to run Win10.

SYSBOT, has a free anti-malware program and also one that they came out with after the Win10 intro that would keep Win10 from phoning home. Even if you disabled the features manually some Win10 updates would turn them back on. Sysbot's program would turn them back off. It also had a feature to block updates.

[somanyroads]

ok I have a box that did a download last night I think. it was set to download but not to install. now I have disabled update. i went to restart and it only allows me to update and restart or update and shut down. how can I find and remove the update.

An Internet search found the following:

C:\Windows\SoftwareDistribution
Open the Download folder and delete its contents

. . . let us know if it works . . .

[shiva]

An Internet search found the following:

C:\Windows\SoftwareDistribution
Open the Download folder and delete its contents

. . . let us know if it works . . .

Tried this today, there is a ton of stuff in that file and I have no understanding of it at all, I think it is all past updates and so I guess it would be ok to delete all of it. I did delete all of the updates in 2018. I'm afraid it might be too late as this morning when I looked I had restart options without the update. I'm afraid the box may have updated over night. is there a way to tell if you have the update that you don't want.

[somanyroads]

Running "winver" (without the quotes) should show the OS Build.

Edit: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/4056892/windows-10-update-kb4056892

[John P. Myers]

There are 2 parts to this fix. ***Do not*** update to the most recent BIOS version for your motherboard either.

With the windows patch + BIOS update, integer and floating point took a 2-3% hit. SATA SSDs lost up to 27% of their rated throughput speeds while m.2 NVMe SSDs lost up to 41%.

[DrPop]

Dang. But if we're on Win 10...looks like SOL after the 1 month "deferment" period it allows on the update settings, right?

[zombie67]

https://www.thurrott.com/cloud/149915/microsoft-intel-vulnerabilities-will-hit-pcs-hard-especially-older-pcs


TL;DR: PCs with older CPUs and Windows are being hit the hardest, but here’s a breakdown, anyway:


Most users on Windows 10 devices with Skylake, Kabylake, or newer CPUs will not notice a change in performance, and benchmarks show single-digit slowdowns.
Some users on Windows 10 devices with older CPUs such as Haswell are expected to notice a dip in performance, and benchmark reports have shown “more significant” slowdowns compared to newer CPUs.
Most users on Windows 7 and 8 devices with olde CPUs like Haswell will notice a decrease in performance. This is mostly due to the fact that the Windows kernel features legacy design decisions, which have been improved with Windows 10.
As for Windows Server, the patches are expected to show “more significant performance” impact on any processor when the mitigation is set to isolate untrusted code within your Windows Server instance. Be careful when patching your servers, basically.

[DrPop]

So since I have 3930K rigs (Sandy Bridge) guess I'm in the slowdown group. :(

[zombie67]

So since I have 3930K rigs (Sandy Bridge) guess I'm in the slowdown group. :(

Ah! But not if you upgrade to win 10! See what they did there? ;)

[Ron Shurtz]

The big bad wolf is banging on my door. :eek:
My first Windows 10 PC has informed me that build 1709 is awaiting download for installation.
I hear huffing and puffing.
My house is about to be blown down. :(

[Fire$torm]

So, a 4790K on Win7 that has had updates turned off for over a year, should not be affected at all?

[shiva]

So, a 4790K on Win7 that has had updates turned off for over a year, should not be affected at all?

you can hope but it seems that nothing is safe from m$.

[John P. Myers]

So, a 4790K on Win7 that has had updates turned off for over a year, should not be affected at all?
I hope so. I have no Win10 machines and all updates are off on the Win7s. Should be good to go.

[somanyroads]

Should we or should we not update nvidia drivers?

https://nvidia.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/4611/related/1/session/L2F2LzEvdGltZS8xNTE1ODY5OTU5L3NpZC9mVTRQeVREQmF0dG g5Q25lODFfSjJXTUVkaTJZdkJiNFBkNVNRcXg1XzNxUnZJaWV5 elFkSUtfZE9iYlF5WUlkZXNjVDZERVRXWk1VVjZVVmpwcmc1QW J1NmtJSEZNajhHMlZ3clhzNEZaa0pWNm9VX3RvcmdCd3clMjEl MjE%3D

Edit: updated nvidia link

[John P. Myers]

Should we or should we not update nvidia drivers?

https://nvidia.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/4610

I'm avoiding it, but i haven't yet heard of any slowdowns from updating. I rarely update GPU drivers anyway as they just seem to get more and more bloated as time goes on. Nearly 400MB now...geez...

On another note, it's nice of M$ to try and shill for Intel again on this issue by saying when using Win10 with the newest CPUs would have single digit impacts, yet Intel's own testing shows up to a 12% (looks like 2 digits to me) impact on a brand new 8700K :D
2871

[Dave gpu]

Should we or should we not update nvidia drivers?

https://nvidia.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/4610

Just updated my nvidia driver on a 960 still running the same time.

[John P. Myers]

2874

[purplecfh]

2874

Que apple claiming its on purpose so the older processor doesn't over heat!

[Ron Shurtz]

I'm not going to be able to hold off my Windows 10 update (1709) for much longer.
I would like to create a "before" benchmark now and again after I get updated for comparison purposes.

Any suggestions on a benchmarking application that would point up the CPU/OS performance change due to this update.?

I would be clearing my prefetch and temporary file areas as well as shutting down as many background applications as possible, including antivirus and BOINC, for each run.

Benchmarks come in all shapes and sizes to test individual components, component groupings, and entire system performance.
I'm not real hardware technical savvy, and may not know the best way to get an analytical handle on want is about to be done to me.
I may notice a day to day usage performance drop, but I would like to make an attempt to quantify it for each of my machines.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks.

[Dave gpu]

AMD confirms its chips are vulnerable to Spectre, is rolling out fixes

https://www.techspot.com/news/72729-amd-confirms-chips-vulnerable-spectre-rolling-out-fixes.html

[Ron Shurtz]

For some of its updates, it sounds like AMD can push out a CPU firmware update versus having to use an OS workaround patch.

[John P. Myers]

Not so sure about the author of that article...AMD and Google both stated 11 days ago there was a very slim chance of *one* of the Spectre variants affecting AMD in a very specific scenario. That article acts as if that was never stated, and then claims it was both variants of Spectre which ProjectZero's testing never showed to be true...at least to my knowledge. Aside from that, it's the Meltdown patches that's causing the speed reduction, not Spectre.

[John P. Myers]

M$ issues emergency update to disable Intel's buggy patches:
https://www.theverge.com/2018/1/29/16944326/microsoft-spectre-processor-bug-emergency-windows-update-reboot-fix

[Al]

Will there be a way to install an OS without getting the performance robbing updates or be a way to remove it?

Gibson Research has a small program that will tell you if either or both patches have been applied and can also disable them.

InSpectre (https://www.grc.com/freepopular.htm)