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View Full Version : Need advice for a CPU cruncher



zombie67
11-07-12, 09:21 PM
Okay, I have PLENTY of GPU power. 6x 7970, 3x 580, 2x 560Ti, 3x 8800GT.

I really would like more CPU power, but am not looking to spend a crap ton of money. Really high end CPUs can be expensive. But even more so, you need some serious hardware to power and cool them.

I love macs, and that is only relevant in this discussion, because I noticed apple recently updated their mac mini line. That is a SWEET little box, with quad core (8 thread) i7 mobile CPU. You could stack up ten of them anywhere, and take up almost no space or much power. The down side is the $800 starting price. But it sparked me thinking about mini-machines as crunchers.

So I looked around on newegg. Their selection of mini computers are all seriously weak. Not the breadth of selection, but rather the performance of them. Nothing quad core, or modern architecture. I assume heat is the problem. Somehow apple has a solution where these other folks don't.

Okay, so maybe the solution is to go with something less compact.

Can a machine with the performance and power consumption of a mac mini, be built for half? Say $500 (because I want more ram than the stock i7 mac mini).

- CPU: At least as powerful as a i7-3615QM mobile with 4 cores (8 threads)
- RAM: 16gb
- HD: At least 250gb
- GPU: Bonus for something that can crunch, but not necessary. mac mini uses built in CPU graphics 4000. Stupid BOINC doesn't work with it....yet.
- Network: wifi required, either integrated or USB
- Sound: Bonus if it is quiet/silent like a mac mini.
- OS: Assume linux ($0). But then make sure your wifi and GPU (if any) solution would work.

zombie67
11-08-12, 12:58 AM
http://secure.newegg.com/WishList/PublicWishDetail.aspx?WishListNumber=28838348

$595 is about the best I can do. Any one else?

coronicus
11-08-12, 01:38 AM
http://secure.newegg.com/WishList/PublicWishDetail.aspx?WishListNumber=28838348

$595 is about the best I can do. Any one else?

wow that casing is small...

i think you have to pick a smaller motherboard (example:)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128568

I would also worry about the powersupply dimensions but im just guessing from reviews, also might wanna pick one with the detachable cables to help with management & cooling.

Air flow for the cpu is were i think you would run into issue specially with extra heat from a beefy videocard and if you decided to go with a dif heatsink i have a feeling its gonna be small and loud.

They says this casing is simliar to the apple one but i dont know havent looked it up.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811345016

John P. Myers
11-08-12, 03:53 PM
Coronicus is right. Has to be a mini-ITX mobo only. No other size will fit. The power supply will fit though and the CPU you picked will also work on the mobo Coronicus linked. The RAM is also fine.

Bikermatt
11-09-12, 09:43 AM
Okay, I have PLENTY of GPU power. 6x 7970, 3x 580, 2x 560Ti, 3x 8800GT.

I really would like more CPU power, but am not looking to spend a crap ton of money. Really high end CPUs can be expensive. But even more so, you need some serious hardware to power and cool them.

I love macs, and that is only relevant in this discussion, because I noticed apple recently updated their mac mini line. That is a SWEET little box, with quad core (8 thread) i7 mobile CPU. You could stack up ten of them anywhere, and take up almost no space or much power. The down side is the $800 starting price. But it sparked me thinking about mini-machines as crunchers.

So I looked around on newegg. Their selection of mini computers are all seriously weak. Not the breadth of selection, but rather the performance of them. Nothing quad core, or modern architecture. I assume heat is the problem. Somehow apple has a solution where these other folks don't.

Okay, so maybe the solution is to go with something less compact.

Can a machine with the performance and power consumption of a mac mini, be built for half? Say $500 (because I want more ram than the stock i7 mac mini).

- CPU: At least as powerful as a i7-3615QM mobile with 4 cores (8 threads)
- RAM: 16gb
- HD: At least 250gb
- GPU: Bonus for something that can crunch, but not necessary. mac mini uses built in CPU graphics 4000. Stupid BOINC doesn't work with it....yet.
- Network: wifi required, either integrated or USB
- Sound: Bonus if it is quiet/silent like a mac mini.
- OS: Assume linux ($0). But then make sure your wifi and GPU (if any) solution would work.

I have thought about this a lot being that I like CPU crunching.

I have thought about going with the smaller low power CPUs in more systems but the math doesn't work out. You need four or five of the smaller systems to equal the output of a dual CPU workstation.

You the have to maintain a lot more systems. You also lose power efficiency because you are powering redundant components.

I think the best value in dual CPU workstations right now is the evga sr-2 with xeon e5645 CPUs. The sr-2 allows overclocking.:D Mine are only running at 3.2GHz but some go above 4 GHz. You can build one with good components and a 7950 for around $2500 US. Just using that as an example because that is how mine is set up right now.

That setup running 5 poem tasks and 18 simap tasks right now is making ~650k poem and ~11k on simap. The system has a seasonic 1000w platinum ps right now and is pulling 485w at the plug.

HOLY COW!! the sr-2 is $350 with free shipping on newegg right now! I used $500 for my estimate above. I know is "old" technology but the output per $ is hard to beat in dual cpu rigs.

zombie67
11-09-12, 01:11 PM
Thanks for pointing out the wrong mobo form factor. I knew I needed ITX, but somehow I ended up selecting the wrong one. Fixed. Now it is up to $635.

Going through this experiment, I have become really impressed with Apple and their mac mini. It is damn small, silent, and cheap! I know they get parts much cheaper than retail, and they have the benefit of their custom design (vs. me having to use a standards-based design). But still! It's quite a bargain, starting at $599. And that includes the OS all the iHome apps.

Question: Assuming I added a 7970 or a 680, what size (power) PSU do I need at a minimum?

John P. Myers
11-09-12, 03:14 PM
Question: Assuming I added a 7970 or a 680, what size (power) PSU do I need at a minimum?

550-600W is fine. But the problem you're going to have in those tiny cases is airflow. Any large GPU is going to run extra-hot. You may even have to underclock it.

Edit: the mac minis look good in the picture, but i'm sure you noticed the specs leave alot to be desired. I went to the apple store site and configured one to try and bring it as close to what you're building in this thread as possible. $1200 and still far behind. Then i got to wondering about cooling so i did a web search and found people actually have to put the mac minis on top of laptop cooler pads, and that's not even for the highly configured ones, as well as the internal fan being extremely loud (over 3000 rpm). They'd be a terrible idea for crunching, gaming, etc. They should just put Intel Atom CPUs (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813500074) in them. They're decent crunchers that won't get heat bound.

zombie67
11-09-12, 07:20 PM
Thanks for the PSU info.

When I configure it with the i7 CPU, it comes in at $799. Replacing the 2x2gb DIMMs with aftermarket 2x8gb adds another $100. Never pay for Apple memory upgrades. A general rule of thumb is that a company has to charge ~2x cost to make a product viable. That is why I was trying to make this build for $500 (half of $800 + $100 for the DIMMs). I am not sure how the CPU performance of the i7 mobile (4c/8t) compares to the i5 desktop (2c/4t).

My macbook pro is an i7 mobile (4c/8t) running full out 24/7. No problem. And the one before it did the same for 3 years.

zombie67
11-09-12, 08:31 PM
A thought: I have those 3x 8800GTs. It would be nice to get them out of the mixed environment they currently inhabit, with my big GPUs. They currently run only PEOM, and are spread out with one in each machine, because you can use only 1 nvidia card per machine on POEM. So I could put one those in this build instead.

How little PSU would be needed in that scenario?

John P. Myers
11-09-12, 08:59 PM
A thought: I have those 3x 8800GTs. It would be nice to get them out of the mixed environment they currently inhabit, with my big GPUs. They currently run only PEOM, and are spread out with one in each machine, because you can use only 1 nvidia card per machine on POEM. So I could put one those in this build instead.

How little PSU would be needed in that scenario?

That's a good idea :) Then you could get away with just a 350W PSU and save some $$

the i7-3615QM is only about 1.5% faster than the i5-3570k (at stock, of course).

zombie67
11-09-12, 10:08 PM
Another question...I have many. :rolleyes:

Heatsink. According to the cooler master site (http://www.coolermaster-usa.com/product.php?product_id=3102), the max height of the CPU cooler is: 65.0 mm / 2.5 inch. I am not exactly sure how that is measured. But at least that gives a rough idea.

Does anyone know the height of the stock CPU cooler that comes with the chip?

And if it is too tall, does anyone have any recommendations for a 3rd party version? I have not been happy with the stock intel CPU coolers in the past. Performance was okay, but the NOISE was outrageous. So I would be looking for a quiet model.

John P. Myers
11-09-12, 10:20 PM
Intel's 1155 stock coolers are 60mm tall, so they'll fit.

zombie67
11-09-12, 10:28 PM
Thanks again for all the great info, JPM.

Now that it's clear the $500 target price is just not possible, I am leaning to moving it up to the i7-3770, for another $80. Seems like a no-brainer.

John P. Myers
11-09-12, 11:31 PM
After looking at the case again, you could put a high-end GPU in there if you wanted. It's designed so the air drawn in by the GPU would be pulled through the perforated side panel. But it would absolutely have to be the type of GPU that exhausted out the back. Not enough space to be swirling hot air around in that case.

Trying to find something that'll cool a 3770 in such a tight spot. Nowhere to mount a Corsair Hxxx which would've been perfect :p It's getting tough.

zombie67
11-09-12, 11:56 PM
After looking at the case again, you could put a high-end GPU in there if you wanted. It's designed so the air drawn in by the GPU would be pulled through the perforated side panel. But it would absolutely have to be the type of GPU that exhausted out the back. Not enough space to be swirling hot air around in that case.

Heh. Yeah, that is why I was asking about a PSU that would power a 7970. Slick side slot there, with the side holes in the right place.


Trying to find something that'll cool a 3770 in such a tight spot. Nowhere to mount a Corsair Hxxx which would've been perfect :p It's getting tough.

Now you got me worried. Is the stock heat sink different for a i5 IB vs i7 IB?

John P. Myers
11-10-12, 12:07 AM
Now you got me worried. Is the stock heat sink different for a i5 IB vs i7 IB?

No it's the same, but that's the problem. I've never had a 3770 so i can only go on what everyone has said, but the stock heatsink is just too inadequate for a 3770, as it was for a 2600K, which i did own. Many people report it just can't keep the chip cool enough under heavy load.

zombie67
11-10-12, 12:12 AM
No it's the same, but that's the problem. I've never had a 3770 so i can only go on what everyone has said, but the stock heatsink is just too inadequate for a 3770, as it was for a 2600K, which i did own. Many people report it just can't keep the chip cool enough under heavy load.

Ah. So it sounds like an after-market model is the way to go. And that also fits with my preference too, due to noise. The problem is that newegg doesn't have a filter by height, which is annoying. I think it has to be a horizontal fan, since the height limit would make a vertical fan too small, and therefore too noisy. Better filters needed!!

John P. Myers
11-10-12, 12:19 AM
Ah. So it sounds like an after-market model is the way to go. And that also fits with my preference too, due to noise. The problem is that newegg doesn't have a filter by height, which is annoying. I think it has to be a horizontal fan, since the height limit would make a vertical fan too small, and therefore too noisy. Better filters needed!!

Right. Unfortunately after spending an hour on Zalman's site looking at the horizontal coolers, the ones that fit aren't rated for anything over a dual core. The ones rated for quad cores will cover your PCIe slot :/ If only there was some way to get an H80 in there somehow :(

zombie67
11-10-12, 12:22 AM
For some reason, I gravitate to cooler master (is that a good thing?). Anyway, they have this one:

http://www.coolermaster-usa.com/product.php?product_id=3091&product_name=GeminII%20M4

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835103177

Edit: Oops. NM. One of the feedback comments says, "Does not fit on Gigabyte Z77N Wifi Mini ITX mother board, it hangs over the PCIE slot, making it impossible to put a video card on."

And THAT leads me to believe that none of the same form factor solutions (120mm horizontal fan) will work either.

John P. Myers
11-10-12, 12:32 AM
For some reason, I gravitate to cooler master (is that a good thing?). Anyway, they have this one:

http://www.coolermaster-usa.com/product.php?product_id=3091&product_name=GeminII%20M4

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835103177

Edit: Oops. NM. One of the feedback comments says, "Does not fit on Gigabyte Z77N Wifi Mini ITX mother board, it hangs over the PCIE slot, making it impossible to put a video card on."

Yep i was trying to get this one to fit on your board: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835118126
But after finding schematics i saw it wouldn't, but one with a radius of 54.5mm would work, but are only rated for dual cores or below :( And nothing wrong with Cooler Master :) I just began with Zalman because i use a cooler similar to the one i linked for my Q9550 (also which the intel stock failed on) and know they work very well.

John P. Myers
11-10-12, 01:02 AM
Ah ha! Maybe this one: http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=46_557_782&products_id=33517 :D

John P. Myers
11-11-12, 03:44 PM
Something interesting: http://phys.org/news/2012-11-intel.html

edit: more info http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/motherboards/desktop-motherboards/next-unit-computing-introduction.html

zombie67
11-11-12, 04:05 PM
Yess! This is exactly what I was looking for! I'll take a stack of 10 please.

John P. Myers
11-11-12, 05:26 PM
°Supports 16GB DDR3 (2x8GB)
°QS77 Express chipset
°2 mini-PCIe slots
°Total power draw of 19.3W with a 180GB mSATA SSD in one of the mini-PCIe slots
°Both systems are just 4.59”×4.41”×1.55”


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBFLCqeAQo4&feature=player_embedded

Mumps
11-11-12, 06:13 PM
°Supports 16GB DDR3 (2x8GB)
°QS77 Express chipset
°2 mini-PCIe slots
°Total power draw of 19.3W with a 180GB mSATA SSD in one of the mini-PCIe slots
°Both systems are just 4.59”×4.41”×1.55”


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBFLCqeAQo4&feature=player_embedded

So, how many GPU's fit into that "mini-PCIe" slot that's left after the SSD drive? :)

John P. Myers
11-11-12, 06:17 PM
So, how many GPU's fit into that "mini-PCIe" slot that's left after the SSD drive? :)

None :D You'd probably use the other slot for a Wifi card. Also they don't make GPUs for that slot type :/ It would have to be shorter than 4" anyway.

Fire$torm
11-11-12, 07:57 PM
You could always go with an external GPU solution. It was JPM, JerWa or myself that posted about a DIY project some time ago. Probably on the old forum. I see if I can find it. I'll also see if I can find some retail products.... Let the hunt begin!

Edit #1: I found the post that references that DIY project ---> http://www.setiusa.us/showthread.php?1630-How-Dual-xeon-with-7x-GTX-580s&p=18054&highlight=hardforum.com+1522180#post18054

[H]ardOCP thread ---> http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1522180

Edit #2: I found another DIY How-To ---> http://www.techradar.com/news/computing-components/graphics-cards/how-to-make-an-external-laptop-graphics-adaptor-915616

BTW, it appears that retail external GPU solutions are passé. I guess notebook users don't care about high end graphics.

zombie67
11-12-12, 09:10 PM
Faster CPU than the Intel Box:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6443/asrock-vision-ht-ivy-bridge-carries-the-sff-htpc-forward

Fire$torm
11-12-12, 10:16 PM
Faster CPU than the Intel Box:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6443/asrock-vision-ht-ivy-bridge-carries-the-sff-htpc-forward

Looks like those units are not quite ready for prime time (Read Reviews (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16856158031)). Too bad.