Upcoming Intel Haswell performance

[DrPop]

http://m.tomshardware.com/reviews/core-i7-4770k-haswell-performance,3461.html

JPM, F$, etc...what's your take?

Edit: now that I read the whole article, looks like Zombie picked the right choice. 6 core SB-e blows it out of the water for anything that resembles crunching. Other than that, a fairly incremental upgrade to IB quad core, on the x86 front. The GPU has considerable improvement though - wonder at what point you could crunch on the built in GPU? It is going to be Open CL 1.2 ...

[STE\/E]

I sure hope the i7-4770K will be available in a High End Laptop like Sager, I've been holding off getting a new one to see if the 4770K will be available ... I don't regret going with the 3770K either when I rebuilt the Pharm a few Month's ago, for the Price $244 Out the Door I couldn't beat it, sure the Haswell 4770K will out run the 3770K but the Wattage is higher too & probably would have cost me a lot more to buy ... IMO

[zombie67]

The GPU has considerable improvement though - wonder at what point you could crunch on the built in GPU? It is going to be Open CL 1.2 ...

You can crunch on the IB GPU (HD 4000) now. We just need projects with the upgraded server and an app that supports it.

[DrPop]

You can crunch on the IB GPU (HD 4000) now. We just need projects with the upgraded server and an app that supports it.

I guess the real question is if the excess heat generated by this would even be worth it. My guess is probably not . . .it just galls me the space they use for the GPU on these things could have given us another 2 cores! I know, I know...that's what SB-E is, but still...what a waste of die space for crunchers. ;-)

[John P. Myers]

You can crunch on the IB GPU (HD 4000) now. We just need projects with the upgraded server and an app that supports it.

OpenCL 1.1 is all you need. Haswell GPU will support OpenCL 1.2.

@DrPop: Yes, now that you read the whole article, i have 1 word for you: meh. It'll be 5 years before anyone optimzes their code for AVX2. In fact, PG is the only project i'm aware of that even bothered to optimize for AVX1, and it's sporadic at that. I'll still get a 4770K, but only 1. IB-E is where i'm looking now. Hopefully their motherboards will catch my eye more than SB-E's did.

The good news about Haswell is that socket 1150 has the same heatsink mounting hole spacing that socket 1155 and 1156 have, so no need to purchase a new aftermarket CPU cooler.

[Fire$torm]

Sorry DP, Been super busy & distracted the few days. Bad combo....

The thing to note about APU type configs, watercooling using most any AIO unit with 120x240/140x280 rads will suffice. The Swiftech H220 will have zero issues even after adding a discrete GPU to the loop.

@JPM: So true on the Dev front..... :(

[DrPop]

So basically you think we could crunch on the built-in GPU as long as water cooled, and not affect the CPU output (heat related issues)? Maybe so. The question in my mind is, would the embedded GPU give equal points to 2 more CPU cores? I don't know.

This whole thing of a GPU built-in to the CPU seems very strange to me, UNLESS the goal is homogenization down the road in the operating system and applications. For example, Photoshop now has calls built-in where if it detects a certain capability of GPU, it will offload instructions from the CPU to the GPU. Now, considering these built-in GPUs have OpenCL, if Photoshop, Windows, Linux O/See, etc., if they can use it to save CPU cycles automatically, then cool. If not, then the high end users are being shafted for more low end appeal of an all in one chip.

I suppose they would tell us we are the target market for SB-e and XEON...I just hope my budget is that high or better someday! :D

[Bryan]

I thought Intel was working on an 8 core type processor (not Xeon). Am I mistaken?

[DrPop]

I thought Intel was working on an 8 core type processor (not Xeon). Am I mistaken?

I sure hope they are, it would serve our crunching purposes a lot nicer than this stuff. Although, I wouldn't be surprised if they made you buy into the considerably more expensive SB-e or upcoming IB-e platform to get the more cores...

[John P. Myers]

I thought Intel was working on an 8 core type processor (not Xeon). Am I mistaken?

Yes the 3980X 8-core SB-E should be out sometime in Q2 (by June 30th). No exact date was given. IB-E will be out in Q4, however there's a small chance Intel may skip IB-E and go directly to Haswell-E. Small, small chance. SB-E and IB-E can both use the same motherboard and socket, but Haswell-E will need a new motherboard even though it's still socket 2011 because the X79 chipset won't support it. Gonna need X99. Haswell-E is also supposed to support quad-channel DDR4,

[Bryan]

Yes the 3980X 8-core SB-E should be out sometime in Q2 (by June 30th).


Durn, the "X" means $1000+, I was hoping for the $400 price range :D

[zombie67]

Durn, the "X" means $1000+, I was hoping for the $400 price range :D

Hmmm. The 3930k = $570. Adding 2 more cores won't make it cheaper....

Here's a question: Why is the 3.3ghz ($1070) more expensive than the 3.5ghz ($1050)?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=100007671%20600217725&IsNodeId=1&name=LGA%202011

[Duke of Buckingham]

Hmmm. The 3930k = $570. Adding 2 more cores won't make it cheaper....

Here's a question: Why is the 3.3ghz ($1070) more expensive than the 3.5ghz ($1050)?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=100007671%20600217725&IsNodeId=1&name=LGA%202011

The 3.3 have 20W less consumption and less consumption is less heat, the turbo gives 3.9 to 4.0 of the 3.5.. In there should be the explanation. Maybe the internal connections are different that would explain the internal resistance of the CPU and consumption.

[DrPop]

I think you've got it. The 3.3GHz hits almost same speed (only 100MHz less on turbo) while using 20W less. In CPU terms, that is a chunk of watts. So you're likely paying for better binned silicon - less impurities or defects or whatever. If you gave the 3.3 CPU all 150W, it's possible O/C might be higher than the 3.5 CPU. Of course if it's not setup to handle it, that also might fry your $1K CPU, so I probably wouldn't try it!!! :D

[John P. Myers]

Intel IB-based Xeons - Confirmed Sexiness because we all know they eventually turn into IB-E :D

*Xeon E5-2400 v2 processors for socket LGA1356 (not a typo) will have up to 10 cores and execute up to 20 threads simultaneously. Preliminary launch date of the Xeon E5-2400 v2 series is Q1 2014.

*Xeon E5-2600 v2 series will have up to 12 cores and execute up to 24 threads simultaneously. The maximum size of L3 cache will be 30 MB. On-chip interfaces will include 2 QPIs, up to 40 lanes of PCIe 3.0, and 4 DDR3 memory channels, that will work with DDR3-1866 memory. Expected launch is Q3 2013.

*Xeon E5-1600 v2 series, which will be available at the same time as the E5-2600 v2, will have up to 6 cores and run up to 12 threads at once.

*Xeon E7 v2 and "Brickland" platform will be released in Q4 2013. These CPUs will incorporate up to 15 cores and execute up to 30 threads simultaneously. L3 cache up to 37.5 MB. Supports up to 24 DIMMS per processor - quad channel. 3 QPIs and 32 lanes of PCIe 3.0.

EDIT: Some comparisons between SB-E and IB-E

Current: Core i7-3820 - 4 cores, 8 threads, 3.6 GHz base, 3.9 GHz turbo, L3 cache: 10 MB, RAM: DDR3-1600, 130 Watt TDP
Future: Core i7-4820K - 4 cores, 8 threads, 3.7 GHz base, 3.9 GHz turbo, L3 cache: 10 MB, RAM: DDR3-1866, 130 Watt TDP

Current: Core i7-3930K - 6 cores, 12 threads, 3.2 GHz base, 3.8 GHz turbo, L3 cache: 12 MB, RAM: DDR3-1600, 130 Watt TDP
Future: Core i7-4930K - 6 cores, 12 threads, 3.4 GHz base, 3.9 GHz turbo, L3 cache: 12 MB, RAM: DDR3-1866, 130 Watt TDP

Current: Core i7-3970X - 6 cores, 12 threads, 3.5 GHz base, 4 GHz turbo, L3 cache: 15 MB, RAM: DDR3-1600, 150 Watt TDP
Future: Core i7-4960X - 6 cores, 12 threads, 3.6 GHz base, 4 GHz turbo, L3 cache: 15 MB, RAM: DDR3-1866, 130 Watt TDP

Future = Novemberish

[Fire$torm]

My only question about Intel silicon: Will Intel continue to integrate the "feature" that will allow Corporate Hollywood to control what a user has stored on their drives?


Edit: See this post ---> http://www.setiusa.us/showthread.php?3405-Intel-makes-a-home-for-Big-Brother-on-Ivy-Bridge

[John P. Myers]

That article wasn't quite accurate. All it actually does is allow you to watch movies provided to you from a site which uses the Intel Insider service. Essentially the movies are encrypted by these cites so when they're sent out over the internet they can't be intercepted and saved on some hacker's hard drive since it can only be decrypted with the Intel Insider decryption garbage. I can personally vouch that Intel Insider does not block you from watching pirated movie DVDs or Blu-Rays. It also does not prevent you from watching a movie you're streaming that was recorded illegally. I may or may not have watched Thor using the latter method, and if i did *cough* Intel Insider made no attempt to stop me. :D The only thing Intel Insider does is prevent people from pirating content from companies that do use Intel Insider. Charlie (SemiAccurate) is known to exaggerate things a bit.

The technology known as Intel Insider does one thing and one thing only. It protects movies delivered from service providers that are specifically using Intel Insider to protect their content. It has to be enabled on the service provider side. Consumers with Intel Insider enabled PCs will have access to content in higher resolution (1080P) and potentially earlier release.

Intel Insider in no way affects any other new or existing media. It does not matter if you buy from iTunes, use home movies, or buy from a CD store, rip from vinyl, or from an 8-track, or bit-torrent. Intel Insider will not touch it.

The only people that will be negatively affected are those who wish to pirate content from services that support Intel Insider.

Intel Insider will not stop you from playing, manipulating or ripping optical media such as a DVD or Blu-ray disk (but those technologies have separate existing safeguards [known as HDCP]). Intel Insider does not affect P2P services. As i stated, i may or may not *cough* have tested this, and Intel is telling the truth. If you're not using a service that uses Intel Insider, Intel Insider is doing nothing to your computer.

[Fire$torm]

Okay... *cough* *cough*

[DrPop]

Okay... *cough* *cough*

Wait! I didn't say turn your head to the left yet! ;) :D

[John P. Myers]

Just revealed that 3 of Haswell's new CPUs will be BGA only, besides the ones meant for laptops, ultrabooks, etc. The i5-4570R and i5-4670R are both quad core CPUs. To make things worse, there's also the i7-4770R, which is quad core with hyperthreading. Why did i say worse? Because for those looking forward to crunching with Intel's on-die GPU, all 3 of these BGA-only CPUs come with HD 5200 graphics, instead of HD 4600 found on the rest of the desktop Haswell's. Bastards.

In short, the R suffix seems to denote BGA only. On top of that, HD 5200 comes with it's own on-package VRAM.

[John P. Myers]

Some info on HD graphics:

EU = Execution Units (similar to a GPU core)

HD 2000: EU=6, OpenCL = No
HD 2500: EU=6, OpenCL = 1.1
HD 3000: EU=12, OpenCL = No
HD 4000: EU=16, OpenCL = 1.1
HD 4200: EU=20, OpenCL = 1.2
HD 4400: EU=20, OpenCL = 1.2
HD 4600: EU=20, OpenCL = 1.2
HD 5000: EU=40, OpenCL = 1.2
HD 5100: EU=40, OpenCL = 1.2
HD 5200: EU=40, OpenCL = 1.2, includes dedicated VRAM

Yes i'm aware Intel recently released an update which brings all HD graphics that previously supported OpenCL 1.1 up to version 1.2. I left them at 1.1 though so we could see which they were :) The ones marked 'No' are still 'No'.

Also note my last post in this thread about HD 5200 graphics being BGA only on some powerful CPUs. Note the difference in specs between HD 4600 and HD 5200. Alot is being missed out on.

[John P. Myers]

Oooh looky someone snagged a pic of the HD 5200 and posted it online just 2.5 hours ago. Speak of the devil (kinda).
1298

On the left of the image you have the Lynx Point chipset. In the center you have the CPU. Immediately to the right of the CPU, that smaller chip is the dedicated VRAM. Amount/speed/type is unknown. Also notice the whole thing is soldered directly to the motherboard.

[zombie67]

Oooh looky someone snagged a pic of the HD 5200 and posted it online just 2.5 hours ago. Speak of the devil (kinda).
1298

On the left of the image you have the Lynx Point chipset. In the center you have the CPU. Immediately to the right of the CPU, that smaller chip is the dedicated VRAM. Amount/speed/type is unknown. Also notice the whole thing is soldered directly to the motherboard.

That picture looks funky to me. See the orientation arrow in the corner? What is that needed for? Also, it looks like a daughter card. You don't put a BGA on a daughter card, and then socket onto a mobo. Something very odd here.

[zombie67]

Some info on HD graphics:

EU = Execution Units (similar to a GPU core)

HD 2000: EU=6, OpenCL = No
HD 2500: EU=6, OpenCL = 1.1
HD 3000: EU=12, OpenCL = No
HD 4000: EU=16, OpenCL = 1.1
HD 4200: EU=20, OpenCL = 1.2
HD 4400: EU=20, OpenCL = 1.2
HD 4600: EU=20, OpenCL = 1.2
HD 5000: EU=40, OpenCL = 1.2
HD 5100: EU=40, OpenCL = 1.2
HD 5200: EU=40, OpenCL = 1.2, includes dedicated VRAM

Yes i'm aware Intel recently released an update which brings all HD graphics that previously supported OpenCL 1.1 up to version 1.2. I left them at 1.1 though so we could see which they were :) The ones marked 'No' are still 'No'.

Also note my last post in this thread about HD 5200 graphics being BGA only on some powerful CPUs. Note the difference in specs between HD 4600 and HD 5200. Alot is being missed out on.

This is a really good list! It makes it clear that the SB graphics (or earlier) will not crunch.

But I am confused about the new GPUs. 4200/4400/4600 all look the same, and the same with the 5000/5100/5200 (aside from the vram).

[Fire$torm]

This is a really good list! It makes it clear that the SB graphics (or earlier) will not crunch.

But I am confused about the new GPUs. 4200/4400/4600 all look the same, and the same with the 5000/5100/5200 (aside from the vram).

Just a guess but maybe higher # = higher clock...?

[DrPop]

Just a guess but maybe higher # = higher clock...?

That was my thought. The series denotes the hardware, i.e. number of cores, and the secondary numbers would show slight increase in speed.

What I don't get is why they are going BGA only with the high end stuff. That makes little sense...I can see them doing it for laptops or small custom stuff but to do it only for those options seems like they are purposely missing out on a whole market segment - which doesn't seem like Intel's usual.

On the other hand, maybe they know something we don't, like the extra Vram and stuff might severely limit the O/C or some such deal...then enthusiasts wouldn't buy it anyway. Just a thought...

[John P. Myers]

That picture looks funky to me. See the orientation arrow in the corner? What is that needed for? Also, it looks like a daughter card. You don't put a BGA on a daughter card, and then socket onto a mobo. Something very odd here.

Not a daughter card, but a substrate. Also known as a Multi-chip module (MCM). Intel has done this before with Pentium CPUs. The arrow in the corner is so whoever installs it does it correctly :p The old Pentium Pro didn't use an arrow, but it had only 3 screw holes, one in each corner forcing you to install it correctly, otherwise the screw holes wouldn't line up. Here's a pic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:KL_Intel_PPro_Overdrive_P6T_Top.jpg Also there is no socket. It's just soldered down in it's designated location. Since other companies will be making motherboards for this, Intel makes it simple by mounting both together on the same substrate. The Wii U also uses 2 chips on the same substrate, designed by IBM, except they went a step further and instead of having a CPU and memory, they put a CPU and GPU together :D http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/137746-nintendo-tears-down-wii-u-to-show-off-single-chip-ibmamd-cpu-gpu No allignment arrows here, but the allignment holes in each corner are offset from the edge by different amounts forcing the correct orientation.

[zombie67]

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6898/intel-details-haswell-overclocked-at-idf-beijing

[John P. Myers]

If you get your freak on by an extreme low power state you may need to get a new power supply if you want to use the new C6/C7 low power states of Intel's upcoming Haswell processors. These new power states require a power supply that can maintain a minimum current load of 0.05A on the CPU exclusive 12V2 rail.

The previous ATX12V v2.3 design guidelines called for a minimum load of 0.5A on the CPU power rail, so a lot of older and budget power supplies will likely not meet the new specification, resulting in stability or shutdown issues once the system enters the C6/C7 power state.

Please note this can occur on the power rail specifically for the CPU. Other components in your system such as drives, GPUs, fans, etc. do not feed off of this rail to raise the minimum draw. To prevent a system shutdown you can simply disable the C6/C7 powerstates in BIOS. No true cruncher would ever allow their CPU to hit a low power state anyway :D

[DrPop]

...No true cruncher would ever allow their CPU to hit a low power state anyway :D

Haha! So true. ;) Which reminds me, they should be a lot more concerned about LOAD power draw and not idle power draw. What's the matter with these office types that only use 5% of their CPU power? :)) :D